445 og hlyshaug gjør ting de ikke kan: Motoroverhaling

[hlyshaug]

Hmmm... kanskje noen på forumet har en jomfruelig ventilløfter liggende, og kan måle høyden på denne, for referansens skyld?

[lukeball]

Glad to see that you are making progress. I am hoping to start my rebuild very soon. I few months back, I aquired a B16B cam and lifters from very low mileage B16B (Penta AQ 80). The lifters have very little wear, so I measured the length of the best one. It is 2.4795". Most of the other ones were 2.4765". Here are some pictures.




Re-using lifters is not a problem; if they are slightly shorter, the valve adjustment can take up the clearance. However, the lifters are hardened and the hardness only goes so deep. It is probably 0.010" deep, so when yours were ground, they might be softer and wear quicker than hardened ones. If you want, I can take a lifter to work and measure the Rockwell hardness (It will probably be one Monday).

[hlyshaug]

Thank you for offering your long-distance help, which I gladly accept.

How do you measure the hardness, and do you think it is possible to "re-harden" the lifters?

[Torbo2]

Det skulle vel tilsi (the same as): 62,98 mm.
With today's motor oils with high quality, it must be okay without hardening again, if they at all have been cured? It means we can check with a file (tool).
It sold the camshaft which is not cured, and since the car is not used in rallies should probably be OK.
Moreover, they are easy to take out fo check, according to B18/20 engines.

Med dagens motoroljer med høy kvalitet bør det vel gå bra uten å herde på ny, om de i det hele tatt har vært herdet? Det kan vi jo sjekke med en fil. hva heter fil på engelsk?

Det selges jo kamakslinger som ikke er herdet, og siden bilen ikke skal brukes i rallyløp bør vel dette gå bra.
Dessuten er de enkle å ta ut fo sjekk, i forhold til B18/20 motorene.

Ellers kan du putte dem/sliteflaten i kullgrillen en time eller to, bråkjøle dem i kald olje, finslipe, og så polere dem opp etterpå. Så blir de glassharde.
Det var den grove teorien, men er ikke sikekr på om dette lar seg gjøre... Det var mest mens om en illustrasjon på teorien rundt settherding...

Otherwise, you can put them / wear surface of the charcoal grill/barbeque an hour og two, fast colling i cold oil, and then polish them up afterwards. Then, they get glasshard.
It was the rough theory, but are not sikekr if this is feasible ... It was mostly an illustration of the theory of sets curing ...

[lukeball]

I think you are confusing forging with hardening. The Isky cams are not forged, however they are probably hardened (at least induction hardened like cranks). If the cam is hardened and the lifters are soft, you are going to have wear problems even with quality oil.

I work at a machine shop and we harden parts all the time. It actually doesn't cost very much (maybe $0.36 per pound) to harden to Rockwell C60. We have a Rockwell hardness tester, which uses a sharp point pressed against the metal. Hardness relates the metal grain structure. There are various hardening technics and it is a fairly complex process. I can forge steel, but hardening is more difficult and then it needs to be tempered.

Here is what I am going to do: On Monday, I will check the hardness of two different lifters, and then the hardness of an almost new factory B16B camshaft (It is not Isky but Volvo). Then I will call Isky directly and find out the hardness of their camshafts and the recommended lifter hardness. I will post the results on here.

I don't want all of this to cause a problem, but I really don't want to see your cam and lifters wear out after a few hundred miles. Did you put break-in lube on all the lobes of the cam, or are you just going to run a break-in oil for the first 500 miles?

[Torbo2]

The length of the rods can indicate how much "amateur workshop" has cut off (uncontrolled? ').
How deep do you think the cure is here? 1 mm og more?
We hope that the ground of less than ca. 0.4 mm, for then it should surely be sufficient hardening again?

Good that you will find out oft the hardening also!

Do yoy have a link to your enginepjoject som we can follow? We havent heard from you for a long time?

[lukeball]

It looks like the "amateur shop" put the lifters on a lathe and just faced them. By looking at them, they were using too much feed on the lathe. It really looks like they took a large cut. Usually you take off about 0.005" or 0.127 mm and it would clean it up. Different hardening processes yield different depth. You are probably fine. Max depth would be 1.5 mm.

I haven't started my engine build yet. I have run into some other problems. I bought a metal lathe and belt grinder and I have been working on those. I did a compression test on my motor and it yielded 60 psi in two cylinders, so it needs complete rebuild. I am going to have an engine shop do all the work, including assembly because their prices are not too bad. I am looking at about $1200 for service + parts. I am going to go all out on this one.

I will probably just take some pictures and add some documentation and post it on Google+. I am not going to go for a performance build, I just want to improve the engine. The main things: complete balance of the crank, con-rods, and pistons. Remove 4 lbs from flywheel and use 8.5" B18 clutch. Installed hardened valve seats. Increase compression to 9.2:1 (they said it is fine). Custom grind cam to match the engine and improve powerband. Then I will do everything else. I am hoping that the block just needs honed not bored. That will save about $800. Total time = 6 weeks with assembly and paint, plus they certify the engine. The engine building shop is local and has been in business for 35+ years, and on average they have 800 motors at a time. It should happen by December or maybe later.

Also, I picked up an original B16 M40 transmission with bellhousing. I am going to rebuild that myself.

[Torbo2]

This is great! Hope you give us experiences that others can enjoy.
Initially, the hardness of the lifter?
It is another thing here as I have found, and it is that when uncured materials are turned towards each other, such as the valve against the valve seat, so there is also a curing process - glass hard surface.
It can be set like this core also lifts in any case they are often as mirrors for a time use. But unfortunately they are often curved backwards using. But here I have good experience with fine sanding on standard engines. The trimmer engine is always recommended new lifters.
Sometimes it may be advantageous to reduce the weight of them, for example. to borrre holes in them in the right places.
This you know well?
Another good link is http://www.kgtrimning.nu/ you might know?
They also have a catalog that you can ship with many good trim tricks ...

[lukeball]

I haven't talked with Isky yet, however, I did check the hardness of the cam and lifters.

The camshaft has a hardness of C33 and the lifters have a hardness of C39. This is still fairly hard and it is not going to occur from work-hardening. This stuff was probably case-hardened like this from the factory. In order for work-hardening to work, oil cannot be present. The material gets hard from heat caused by friction, however it is high-heat (enough to burn oil).

Also, my boss (he has built a number of engines) advised that the bottom of the lifter be perfectly square, if not it is going to wear out the cam quick. Your best method would be to have them surface ground, with the lifters in V-blocks. Then properly break-in the camshaft; special lube is put on each cam lobe and this helps the lifter wear itself into the cam.

[445]

Har fått bekreftet at lengden på en ny løfter er 63 mm.
Mange takk til vårt medlem i Midt-Norge som sendte denne informasjonen til meg!

[Torbo2]

lukeball målte 62,98 mm (rettet) eller 2,479", og 445 opplyser s 63 mm.
Hva er dine hlyshaug?

[445]

Vi har i dag målt de aktuelle løfterne. Variable lengder mellom 62,3 og til nesten 63mm.
Hlyshaug kommer med de eksakte målene.

Hvilke avvik kan godtas?

[445]

Ser at vi postet nesten samtidig om nesten det samme...

[445]

Lukeball målte vel 62,98?

[445]

Kan man, teoretisk, stokke om på disse løfterne?
Slik at f.eks alle de lengste er på innsug og de korteste på eksos?
Eller må de stå på den plassen de hadde?